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Mary Timmins and John O Brien

marytimmins
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I am looking for the birth- and death dates of my Irish greatgrandmother Mary Timmins and husband John ‘Brien/ John Brien, both born in Ireland.

Date and Place of birth of Mary Timmins
Born in Ireland about 1862 and death in UK (2 dec 1899, 37 years old.
Adress: 26 Tourney Road, Fulham, London, Source: death registration Fulham, London.

Probably - just like her siblings - born in Ireland. Could not find her birthinfo. , because there was no civil birth registration before 1864.

Parents of Mary, moved later to England
Elizabeth/ Elizebeth Timmins born 1831/1832, Ireland.
died 10 jan. 1907 (England, 7 Gironde Road, Fulham)
age 75: Burial 14 Jan 1907, St Thomas Catholic Cemetery, Fulham, London

William Timmins, born 1838/ 1839, Ireland, died 4 august 1886 in England (age 48).
Profession: butler (source marriages certificates of Mary Timmins in 1878, Alice Timmins in 1892 and Catherine in 1894)


Mary’s siblings, younger brothers and sisters

- Joseph William Timmins
Born 24 Apr 1863, baptized 26 april 1863, date of death unkown.
Kingstown, Dun Laoghaire, St. Michael's, Dublin, Ireland

- Thomas John Timmins born 27 mai 1865 (0915 Kingstown District, Dublin, Ireland, Mulgrave Street)
Baptism 27 May 1865, Dun Laoghaire, St. Michael's, Kingstown
Moved to England. Sources 1891 and 1901 Census in UK, lived together with mother Elizabeth, sister Alice and niece Margaret Brien, address 60 Shorrold Rd, Fulham, London.and returned later back to Ireland.
Died 20.8.1923 in Bray, Ireland (County Dublin, Bray).

Alice Timmins-Lysagt born 23 jul 1867 (Kingstown District, Dublin, Ireland); Moved to the UK, married in 1 okt 1892, London. Husband: Daniel Joseph Lysaght, baptized 14 dec 1858 in Ireland; died 1931 in Fulham. Profession tramconducter. Source his marriage certificate, 1892, London.
Adress: 27 Rostrevor Rd, Fulham, SW 6
Died 13.12.1944 (England, Fulham), (Source birth and death registration)

- Catherine Josephine Timmins, born 2 March 1871, 32 Mulgrave Street, Ireland (Source birth registration). Moved to England.
- Married 23 December 1894 with Percy Ross Terrell (omnibus Conducter) in London.
In March 1899 adress 23 Tourney Road (source: birth certificate of daughter Kathleen), in the same street as sister Mary Timmins (source death certificate Mary dec 1899).

Marriage of Mary Timmins to John O Brien, 1 july 1878, Dublin
Dublin North, St Michan’s Church, North Anne Street.

Children of Mary and John O Brien
Alice, the eldest child, only familyinformation that Alice disappeared in Ireland after disagreement with her parents about her boyfriend. I understand that is too little to do research.
Martha Mary in Dublin, 27 june 1890, Dublin
John Thomas O Brien, 8 june 1895 in London, England

Departure Mary and John O Brien from Ireland to England
Between 7 july 1890 (date of baptism of Martha Mary in Dublin) and 8 june 1895 (date of birth of John Thomas O Brien in London, England)
Sources; Certificates Baptism Martha and Registration Birth John Thomas Brien.

Death of Mary Brien- Timmins,
Died at age 37, 2 december 1899, 26 Tourney Rd, Fulham, London.
Death confirmed by her sister Alice Lysaght- Timmins, sister

Her sister Alice Lysaght- Timmins was present at her death.
Alice did take Mary's daughter Martha Brien in her house in Fulham (Martha O' Brien is my grandmother).

No indication in this death certificate about her husband John Brien (alive or deceased). But according to familyinformation he was definitely alive and sent away by Alice Lysaght-Timmins when he did turn up after a long absence informing where his wife Mary was. She showed him her graveyuard.! (Source Census England 1901, also Elizabeth and brother Thomas John on the same address of Alice Lysaght).



Estimated Time of birth and death of husband John O Brien
Birth: between 1850 and 1857. At time of marriage he was aged major so at least 21 year.
Death: Between 1900 and 1911 in the UK.
Between the death of his wife Mary Brien, 2 december 1899 and 15 february 1911, date of marriage of his daughter Martha Margaret O Brien with John Joseph O Leary (my grandparents (source with marriage certificate, indication "deceased" on John Brien)
Sources: Baptism and Birth certificates.

femuse
femuse
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marytimmins Escreveu:
19 junho 2019, 13:02
there was no civil birth registration before 1864
but there were Catholic Parish Registers

a bit to start:
marytimmins Escreveu: William Timmins
married between 1857 and 1862
Was she Mary Margaret Elizebeth ?

Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915; Microfilm 04187 / 05
Wm Timmins
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 14 Nov 1858
Marriage Place: Clonmellon, Ireland, Ireland
Parish Variants: Killalon, Killan, Killon
Diocese: Meath
Spouse: Margt Bechan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
your tree
<< Catherine Josephine Timmins deceased about 1915 - England >>


UK, Burial and Cremation Index, 1576-2014
Catherine Josephine Terrell
Death Date: abt 1931
Burial 4 Feb 1931 Kensington and Chelsea, London, England


England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007; Volume: 1a; Page: 554
Catherine J Terrell
Death Age: 59
Birth Date: abt 1872
Registration Date: Jan/Feb/Mar 1931
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will look more later
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:evil:

marytimmins
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Thank you so much for your effort!

Indeed my greatgreatgrandmother was know as Elizebeth Behan or Bain married with William Timmins. So you very well may have found the right person.

Her daughter. Catherine indeed married mr Terrell and died in 1931 in Fulham where abig part of the Timmins including my greatgrandmother Mary Brien- Timmins died in 1899.

Kind regards,

Peter Hartog

marytimmins
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Maybe My greatgrandmother Mary Timmins was born at the samen Place where her possible parents William and (Mary Margreet) Elizabeth married in 1858 in Meath?

femuse
femuse
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is that the right one ?

similar profession: in 1901: carpenter/joiner & single


1911 South Fulham, London; ; Registration District 3; ED5; Piece: 342; RG14
24 Hestercombe Avenue, Fulham S W
married ca 1910
Thomas Timmins 45 1866 Ireland /builder general foreman
Mary Agnes Timmins 41 1870 Ireland
Le but de ce Forum est echange entre tous les membres.
Merci de ne ne pas me contacter par messagerie avec des demandes d'aide.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Si ne répond pas a votre question du forum, cela n'est pas parceque je vous ignore,
c'est simplement que je n'ai pas reçu de notification.
:evil:

femuse
femuse
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[ I post them as I find them - no order ]


? possible [son: John Thomas O Brien born West Ham, Essex]

England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
John O'Brien
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Registration Year: 1906
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: West Ham, Essex, England
Volume: 4a
Page: 27
Le but de ce Forum est echange entre tous les membres.
Merci de ne ne pas me contacter par messagerie avec des demandes d'aide.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Si ne répond pas a votre question du forum, cela n'est pas parceque je vous ignore,
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:evil:

marytimmins
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Thanks your for your messages!

Thomas Timmins was a brother of Mary Timmins.

John Thomas O Brien Born 1895 was the son of Mary Timmins.

I hope to get more information where and when both Mary Timmins and aJohn O Brien ( father of John Thomas O Brien) where Born.

Finding the marriage of the parents of Mary Timmins mau be a lead. The father of Mary , William Timmins was a butler.

marytimmins
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IF possible, I would like to have a copy of:

- the marriage certificate of William Timmins with Mary Margaret Elizabeth in 1858 in Ireland.
- the death certificate of John O Brien, husband of Mary Timmins, in 1906. The Place of death West ham Essex, maybe fitting as his son John O Brien was Born in 1895 in the same
Lance, west ham, Essex.

Best wishes,

femuse
femuse
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What I had were only the entries in a register, not the acts themselves, and they do not list anything else besides what I mentioned.

I don't believe you will find the acts on line, only those lists.

<< Once you have found the marriage record you need, then you can order a copy of the certificate if it is available >>
https://ukmarriages.org/index.php

same story for death certificates:
John O Brien, page 27/volume 4a will be useful to obtain the act itself.


you may or not know this:

many URLs, I just checked 2 or 3:
https://www.cyndislist.com/uk/eng/bmd/


https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/copy_certificates
Le but de ce Forum est echange entre tous les membres.
Merci de ne ne pas me contacter par messagerie avec des demandes d'aide.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Si ne répond pas a votre question du forum, cela n'est pas parceque je vous ignore,
c'est simplement que je n'ai pas reçu de notification.
:evil:

marytimmins
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Thanks again. I will try to order a copy of the deathcertificate of John O Brien.

femuse
femuse
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we have a problem:

There was another John O' Brien, born in Ireland ca 1857, living in West Ham, Essex. Census 1881-1901

yours left Ireland for England ca 1890-1895, so this John O' Brien is not yours, BUT he could be the one on the death certificate.
Le but de ce Forum est echange entre tous les membres.
Merci de ne ne pas me contacter par messagerie avec des demandes d'aide.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Si ne répond pas a votre question du forum, cela n'est pas parceque je vous ignore,
c'est simplement que je n'ai pas reçu de notification.
:evil:

femuse
femuse
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if John O Brien & Mary Timmins were married in 1878, you may have some missing children
  • Alice O Brien <1878-1890> - Ireland

    Martha Mary O Brien 27 June 1890 - Dublin, Ireland

    John Thomas O Brien 8 June 1895 London- West Ham, Essex, England

you said:

John O' Brien << did turn up after a long absence >>

this one time, or was it a habit ?
could he have been a sailor ? or in the army ? .... or in prison ?

I have found some sailors & soldiers, same age, but they do not seem to be the right ones.

But, that could explain the gap in the birth dates of the children.
Le but de ce Forum est echange entre tous les membres.
Merci de ne ne pas me contacter par messagerie avec des demandes d'aide.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Si ne répond pas a votre question du forum, cela n'est pas parceque je vous ignore,
c'est simplement que je n'ai pas reçu de notification.
:evil:

marytimmins
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Thanks again for all the research done. I appreciate your thinking and questions!


About your questions:
Yes, Seeing the agedifference between the known children of John and Mary Brien-Timmins it is possible there were more children.

The family story was that back in Ireland John O Brien did work as a telegrafist at the Post Office. He lost his job supposingly because he had a drinking problem. I could not find prove of his job at the post office in Ireland. If so this must have been between 1878 and before 1890. Because in the birthcertificate of Martha O Brien (my grandmother), born 27 June 1890, his profession as "labourer" is mentioned. And in the marriage certificate of 1878 he worked a signal men at the railwaycompany in Dublin.

In the files at the postalmuseum in London there are many John O Briens without date of birth, no info about their wifes.

The solid information in his marriage certificate of 1878 in Dublin: his job was signal men at the railwaycompany MGWR in Dublin. John Brien was of official age, Mary was a minor. His witnes John Malone was a colleague at the MGWR.
According to the archivist of the railwaycompany archives in Dublin, it is may be possible that John in very young years was recruited from the Connaught Rangers.

About John's life in England
At the birthcertificate of John O Brien junior in West Ham, Essex, born 8 june1895, his job is "General Labourer".
So he was not a sailor. It may be possible he was away for weeks transported by lorry to where the work was. That must have been a lonely life away form his wife mary and childeren. It could happen that men did drink to forget their loneliness. Maybe this was also the case with John?

If you have questions, please let me know,

Have a nice day,

Best wishes, Peter

marytimmins
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Here are copies of certificates of the marriage of my greatgrandparents John and Mary brien-Timmins, my grandmother Martha Brien and greatuncle John Brien,
Anexos
Marriage 1 july 1878 John O Brien Signal Man in District North Dublin Roman Catholic Chapel of St Michan N Anne.pdf
Marriage certificate july 1878 John Brien and Mary Timmins. Profession signal men raiklway company Dublin 1878
(239.73 KiB) Transferido 6 vezes
CIVIL REGISTRATION BIRTH Margareth O Brien july 1890 Dublin North.pdf
Civil birth registration Martha Brien, 1890 Dublin. Profession father: Labourer
(174.77 KiB) Transferido 8 vezes
Birth Registrationdistrict West Ham, London june 1895 John Thomas O Brien junior.pdf
Civil birthregistration John junior, 1895 West Ham, Essex. Profession John senior: General Labourer.
(1.17 MiB) Transferido 7 vezes

marytimmins
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About the marriage of Wm Timmins of 14 nov 1858 in Meath, Ireland. I studies this but could not find a confirmation if this is indeed the William and Elizabeth Timmins, the parents of Mary Timmins.

Mary Brien- Timmins had a tragic life, dying at age 37in Fulham, leaving her little children Martha (9) and John (4) behind. Her sister Alice Lysaght- Timmins was present. My grandmother Martha was adopteerde by her aunt Alice Lysaght in Fulham. I do not know how took care of John junior.

I hope to find out where/ when Mary Timmins and husband John Brien were born.
He was Otten absent by work. I do not know if his absence was caused by emprisonment.

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